Do you want to know the real difference between studying in top Ranked vs Low Ranked Universities?
Actual question : As an engineering student from an Ivy League school, will I be at a disadvantage in graduate admissions compared to students from schools with higher-ranked engineering programs?
Studying in Top Ranked Universities
I assume that ‘an Ivy League school’ in this context really means ‘a lower-ranked engineering school’. Apologies for being direct.
Let me answer this question in a way that will be most useful to you, where ‘most useful’ does not necessarily mean ‘most encouraging’ or ‘most comforting’. I’ve been called out on Quora before for being overly negative in my admissions-related answers, but increasingly I’ve come to believe strongly in the Chinese proverb “The best medicine is bitter to swallow but good for the illness”.
The answer to your question, is Yes, you are at a disadvantage coming from a lower-ranked engineering school.
A lot of people will be howling their disagreement at this point. Most graduate students at top engineering schools will tell you that they know plenty of people in their program from lower-ranked engineering schools, so it appears there are plenty of counterexamples that render my answer false.
Also, most professors will tell you that admissions committees look at your research, your letters of recommendation, your coursework, your statement of purpose, and that the last thing on their minds is the ranking of your school.
Even the concept of rankings is widely ridiculed, even reviled. It has become the norm to discount rankings as just manipulative marketing. Even with rankings computed by reputed agencies that use a plethora of metrics, there are endless categories and subcategories such that there is literally a number one for everyone.
There is a nebulous idea that rankings mean something, but it is difficult to appreciate what they mean for a student or a prospective applicant.
Excellence
Let me try to illustrate what I mean with these drawings that I scratched out on my iPad. Sorry about how they look.
This is a plot of number of people versus awesomeness, at your undergrad institution.
As you would expect, it is a typical Gaussian ‘bell’ curve. Nothing surprising here.
The new curve in the following plot represents the same Gaussian but for a higher-ranked school.
My argument is that the Gaussian is simply shifted to the right. Are you precluded from the highest levels of awesomeness simply because your school is lower-ranked? No, because the Gaussian extends infinitely long.
5 Advantages in Single Line
But on average, the level of thinking, level of work ethic, level of teaching, level of student-led research, level of excellence, is simply that bit higher quality.
The new curve in the following plot represents the Gaussian for applicants to graduate school.
People who apply to graduate school are generally better-performing and more motivated, and a mix of the best of all undergrad institutions.
What matters isn’t how awesome your school is. What matters is, how awesome are you?
Let’s consider a couple cases.
If you were on the dotted line in the following plot, you were average in school, but would be strictly below average at a higher-ranked school, and pretty much bottom of the graduate school applicant pile.
If you were on the dotted line here, you were a genius in school, but then you would be just sorta smart at a higher-ranked school, and average in the applicant pile.
There is a disadvantage, but it isn’t from the admissions process – obviously nobody is going to judge you simply on where you’re from.
The disadvantage is that your school and your peers have left you comfortable with a relatively low standard of excellence.
What you think is great, others think meh. And this is a crippling disadvantage in your personal growth and training, which severely affect your future prospects either in the workforce or graduate school.
A graduate admissions committee isn’t going to pick students because they are from the highest-ranked engineering schools, but it is going to pick the best engineers. And the best engineers, not all, but most, come from the highest-ranked schools.
So here’s the plan: you should know that the ranking of your school doesn’t disadvantage you directly in the process, but you should also be starkly aware that you probably aren’t as good an engineer or graduate school applicant as you think you are, even if you are valedictorian.
A you who studies diligently and understands fully the fundamental concepts from coursework, a you who works tirelessly in the lab after class, a you who learns earnestly from your research advisor and graduate student mentors, a you who fights for second author or even first author on one or even two or three research publications.
For every success you achieve, remind yourself that there are 10 or 100 or 1,000 or 10,000 undergrads out there who have achieved more and have stopped congratulating themselves and gone back to work.
If you can do that, then you are at no disadvantage.
Are you in Low Ranked University?
Now, you may ask, I’m studying in low ranked university, what can I do to improve my Awesomeness?
I explain few things you can do if you a in low ranked school at – Advantages of Attending High Ranked University.
“Like” if you want to be Awesome.
Hi,
I read all d posts about universities, has per my experience just for name sake studying in a low ranked management schools your career brightness options will b lesser. Incase if u can afford good tution fee and grab opportunities in top universities ur future also would be brighter and career will be very good…….
I truly agree with the post that the curve just shifts to the right at any elite university.
Love the way it has been portrayed.
superb analysis
Comparatively no better explanation can be given. stroke of a genius. Marvelous post.
This is a great post ! Great eye opener. I was aware of the excellence-gap between IITs and other engineering institutes and have talked a lot about it to my friends, but never quite this clearly or in this context.
“The disadvantage is that your school and your peers have left you comfortable with a relatively low standard of excellence.What you think is great, others think meh. ”
For example,
Designing & building a robot in my university had a WOW factor. But in IITs that was what every bored undergrad did ( who were interested in it). When we were struggling to implement computer vision algorithms in our robot, they designed and contributed algorithms to real world problems to some open source repos. !
Once again, Nice post !
Perfect Example. Not, scale that to Harvard and MIT. I read about a student who is like 17 from Harvard, who got mentioned by Obama multiple times for her research in Cancer.
Just because you mentioned the girl in cancer research, you must check this out. This guy has accompolished much more than many do in our life time. He freaking built a nuclear reactor when he was 14 years old ! Amazing !
Beautifully explained. I have a couple of questions but before getting to that, a bit of nit picking: Traditionally, “Ivy League” refers to eight universities on the East Coast – Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, Harvard, Pennsylvania, Princeton and Yale; not exactly what you might call “lower ranked” schools. But, notwithstanding that clarification, Dr. Liang’s analysis stands. My question is a slightly different one. I don’t know if Dr. Liang is familiar with the Indian engineering colleges. But if a student completes her undergraduate degree from a major Indian Engg. college – let’s say the Vellore Institute of technology, not quite the Indian Institutes of Technology (the IITs) but close – with a 3.7 GPA where would she stand among her classmates at a place like MIT or Ann Arbor? Would she be able to hold her own among her peers at top American universities? Are the scores in standardized tests like GRE a good indicator of her intellectual level and preparedness for graduate study compared to her American classmates?
I started responding to your comment and ended up writing a blog post.
to answer your question, my guess would be at bottom of the class among his peers.
Firstly, from what i observed from the IIT students i have interacted with IITs in itself is leagues above universities like VIT, SRM etc. The quality of professors are just too good. One can argue that VIT have been actively hiring former IIT Professors aggressively – my observation hold true even considering this.
Almost all the IIT professors have very good research portfolios. Labs are funded by big corporate companies. Undergrads can take graduate level courses if they want to. Best of all is the “cumulative-beefed-up-high-IQ” student groups. Maybe 1 -5% of top students from universities are at par with 60 -75% of the students at IIT.
But things are looking up, I don’t have that much information about VIT, but SRM University is beginning to realise the value of research and setting up labs with some hi tech equipments and recruiting renowned researchers from US to work in them. They even launched a mini satellite last year in collabration with ISRO.
IMHO, GRE English and Math tests is never an indication of a persons intelluctual ability. Subject tests does to a level test your knowledge you have gained thus far. But even that i believe is ‘hackable’.
I would advice anyone to never let go of a top class university if u get an opportunity. The only scenario when GPA would matter in grad school is when u try to apply for a PhD. Otherwise anything above 3.0 should be fine (which most can manage)
The only thing recruiters see is the amount of knowledge u have in your field, which is (in most cases) directly proportional to the quality of graduate college u get into. Remember, good univ. implies greater employment opportunities. Also, the alumni will play a major role in referrals too!
The connections that u make there are invaluable. The people that u mingle with will change the way u think. Money or fear of not performing at a top univ. should never be a factor. Graduate college will certainly be a career/life changing experience and it will certainly be better at good univ.
I just can’t restrain from commenting when I saw Raghuram’s remark.
I don’t think that just because if you are from a university perceived elite you are intelligent. I have peers from Peking University whom I don’t find very smart.
I am a graduate student at UMich and I have managed to pass with highest grades in the course (I am not an IITian). I believe anyone can do well as long as he/she have worked on building their foundation in the field. The atmosphere at elite universities is more congenial right from undergrad to have a good foundation. But in a not so elite university, it is your personal drive that determines your progress.
A mango seed kept on the table will not grow into a plant or tree. But a seed grown in a good soil (with the right environment) will bear fruits one day.
Nice post… Really matters…………
Great post… Really matters…………
agreed intoto !
Hi HSB,
Excellent post.. Now I have a question for you HSB..
Though it relates to the post, it is an indirect kind of doubt though.. Please answer it..!
Which is better or the ‘BEST’ among these two options which a student can face and in which case has the student great opportunities in future?
Case 1: B-grade student with Average performance in a Top Ranking University
(OR)
Case 2: A-grade student with Outstanding performance in a Average/moderate Ranked University?
I would read this sentence again “But on average, the level of thinking, level of work ethic, level of teaching, level of student-led research, level of excellence, is simply that bit higher quality.”
So, my choice would be to get to the maximum possible school you can get in. I know students who picked a low ranked school just because they cannot pay $10,000 more in fees. Thats a huge mistake according to me.
Thumbs up, great post…
loved it…